What led a New York appeals court to overturn Harvey Weinstein’s rape conviction

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• Amna Nawaz:

  New York's highest court has overturned Harvey Weinstein's 2020 rape conviction, a stunning reversal in the landmark case of the MeToo movement.

  In a 4-3 decision, the Court of Appeals said the trial judge's decision to allow witnesses to claim Weinstein assaulted them, but not include those witnesses' allegations in the charges, precluded Weinstein from having a fair trial.

  Weinstein's lawyers commended the court earlier today for what they called a tremendous victory for criminal defendants.

• Arthur Aidala, Attorney For Harvey Weinstein:

  There are some people who are very unpopular in our society, but we still have to apply the la fairly to them. And in this courthouse behind us at that trial, the law was not applied fairly to Harvey Weinstein.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Weinstein is currently being held in an Upstate New York prison.

  For more on what this reversal means for him and why the case unfolded as it did, I'm joined by Jodi Kantor, New York Times investigative reporter who broke the story of Mr. Weinstein's sex crimes.

  So, Jodi, you and your colleague Megan Twohey, of course, broke that story back in 2017. No one has followed it more closely. Did today's decision surprise you?

• Jodi Kantor, The New York Times:

  No.

  This has been brewing for a long time. From the start, Megan and I were never really sure how Harvey Weinstein would be treated by the criminal justice system, because, when we think of the allegations against him, there are so many. Those women could fill an entire courtroom by themselves.

  But a lot of them weren't eligible to stand at the center of a New York trial. A lot of the allegations were about sexual harassment, which is not a crime, or they passed the statute of limitations, or they didn't take place in New York.

  So the New York trial was only about two women, both of whom had had consensual sex with Weinstein, in addition to the very upsetting acts that they described. That can be very messy for juries. So prosecutors brought in additional witnesses to sort of bolster their case, but the complaint against them was always the classic kind of criminal law complaint, saying the facts presented in that courtroom need to be relevant to the charges in the trial.

  And that, in fact, is the basis on which the conviction was overturned.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Well, after your initial reporting, more than 100 women came forward with similar allegations of sexual assault or harassment by Weinstein.

  Today, one of those survivors, actress and activist Ashley Judd, reacted to the news today.

  Ashley Judd, Actress and Political Activist: This today is an act of institutional betrayal, and our institutions betray survivors of male sexual violence. I stand shoulder to shoulder with women who have bloody knees, because male sexual violence may knock us down, but we get right back up.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Jodi, have you heard this similar sentiment from other survivors?

• Jodi Kantor:

  You know, I called Ashley today when I first heard the news, and I was actually the one to share it with her. And she found it disappointing and upsetting, but she was also unwavering.

  And she said: "We know what really happened."

  And, yes, I have heard similar sentiments from Weinstein's alleged victims today, and I think a special upset for the women who stood up and went through the difficulty of a criminal trial and provided that extra testimony, which the court has now wiped away.

  But, interestingly, I should tell you, some of the strongest objections were from some of the appellate judges. This was a very split group of judges who had a very painful debate. The majority only won by one vote, and some of the judges who were in the minority basically protested and said, what are you doing? You're naive. You're disregarding the progress we have made in learning how to prosecute sex crimes.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Jodi, what does this mean for Weinstein himself? As we mentioned, he's still imprisoned in Upstate New York. What do we know about his health and about his future based on this decision?

• Jodi Kantor:

  Well, he is not a free man, because, remember, he was also convicted in Los Angeles. So, soon, he's going to be moved to California to start serving out that sentence.

  Meanwhile, that conviction is being appealed by his lawyers next month on the same basis that the New York case was overturned. They're going to complain about these additional witnesses. Whether it will matter, I don't know.

  California law is a little clearer and firmer on the use of those witnesses. But I should tell you that the lawyer litigating that case is the same attorney who was able to get Bill Cosby's conviction thrown out.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Jodi, in New York, meanwhile, the district attorney's office has said they will attempt to retry the case.

  In the less than a minute we have left, what's the timeline ahead look like for that?

• Jodi Kantor:

  It's confusing, and it's a tough decision, I think, for them, because the case is so culturally important and means so much to so many people that, to leave it alone, to let it stand here, would be very unsatisfying.

  But to try to go back to the beginning and do this again and get those women to tell those painful stories in court, I'm not exactly sure what's going to be possible.

• Amna Nawaz:

  That is New York Times investigative reporter Jodi Kantor, who broke the story of Harvey Weinstein's sex crimes back in 2017.

  Jodi, thank you for joining us today. We appreciate it.

• Jodi Kantor:

  Thank you.